Mental Health, Faith, and COVID-19 with Elli Johnson from Sanctuary Mental Health on Vimeo.
Update on The Sanctuary Podcast:
During these extraordinary times, while we canât be with each other physically, we can reach out through screens and over phones, and we can share our stories with each other. Join Sanctuaryâs CEO, Daniel Whitehead, as he interviews pastors, front line workers, ministry leaders, and friends about their experience of the pandemic and where they are making meaning and finding hope in the ups and downs of this season.
Episode Description:
Mental health advocate and author, Elli Johnson, discusses parenting during the pandemic, accepting limits, allowing our emotions to move through us, and the therapeutic value of tears. She shares candidly about the challenges of finding a home in the Church, where works are often prioritized, as a person who has rejected the message that we need to perform to be worthy of acceptance.
Running time: 45:52
Release date: May 22, 2020
Resources mentioned in the show:
How Not to Be Good, Elli Johnson
Sabbath: Finding Rest, Renewal and Delight in Our Daily Lives, Wayne Muller
GCSE: General Certificate of Secondary Education
Postnatal/Postpartum Depression and Anxiety
âThe Speed of Love,â John Swinton
Crisis Resources:
For your quick reference, here are nationwide emergency numbers and crisis lines:
- Canada: 911, Crisis Services Canada: 1-833-456-4566
- British Columbia: 1-800-SUICIDE (1-800-784-2433)
- United States: 911, National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- United Kingdom: 999/112, Samaritans: 116 123
- New Zealand: 111, 1737, Lifeline Aotearoa: 0800-543-354
- Australia: 000, Lifeline: 13 11 14
TRANSCRIPT
Daniel Whitehead: Okay so welcome to The Sanctuary Podcast, my name is Daniel Whitehead, I am the CEO of Sanctuary Mental Health Ministries, and during COVID-19 Iâm also your host for this podcast. Our whole vision for this podcast in this season is that we connect with friends of Sanctuaryâsâpeople around the world who are doing great work in the whole intersection of mental health and faith, and people with a story to tell, and we just really want to drill into their story, and hear how theyâre doing in this time. Today weâre joined by a really good friend of mine, Elli Johnson. Elli is based in Liverpool, England. Elli is an author, sheâs written one excellent book called How Not To Be Good, which I have read and it is a really, really good book, sheâs got another book brewing which maybe sheâll tell us about. Yeah Elli, though she lives in Liverpool, is not from Liverpool, as youâll hear from her accent if youâre accustomed to British accents as I am, she is not a Liverpudlian, but just Elli has an amazing story and does amazing work, and weâre delighted to have her with us. Hi Elli.
Elli Johnson: Hi.
Daniel Whitehead: So Elli COVID-19.
Elli Johnson: Yes.
Daniel Whitehead: Howâs that going?
Elli Johnson: Well itâs going, I feel like thereâs not really a one answer to that is there, because every day, although the day involves all of the same things as the day before, and the day afterâwell emotionally from one day to the next, whether itâs me, my husband, my children, who knows what weâre going to get really. But yeah weâre doing okay overall I would say, weâre doing pretty good.
Daniel Whitehead: And how many children, tell everyone your sort of home situation at the moment Elli.
Elli Johnson: So I am married, been married for twenty years this summer, and I haveâwe have three kids, two girls who are fifteen and thirteen, and a son whoâs ten.
Daniel Whitehead: Okay.
Elli Johnson: And we all are in our house at the moment, obviously. My husband doesnât normally work from home, whereas I do, and he has taken over my study, and I am in the spare room, because thatâs what happens when he needs to work.
Daniel Whitehead: Wow, wow.
Elli Johnson: Yeah quite a sacrifice on my part.
Daniel Whitehead: Was that a, was that a happy agreement, like.
Elli Johnson: It was a necessary agreement, I donât think happy is the word I would use. It was fine, it was, it was, it makes most sense because Iâm writing, and can organize my own time and I have occasionalâbut not very oftenâneed for Zoom calls and all the rest of it, and Iâm also the one doing the lionâs share of the home schooling, and he is on different Zoom calls with people he works with, and with clients and people he works with all day long, from nine in the morning till six in the evening, so him being in a room with the door shut, away from the noise of the rest of us works better, although I did feel quite sad giving up my space.
Daniel Whitehead: Yeah, well yeah tell me about that.
Elli Johnson: Well itâs just, to be honest when, I think it was probably a week or ten days before we went into actual lockdown, when it started looking like schools were going to close, and I realized that before I realized that also that was going to beâmy husband was going to be working from home. And Iâm not sure which I found more distressing if Iâm perfectly honest. Itâs one thing to be at home on my own with kids, which is what happens most of the holidays, apart from the time that my husband has off work. Itâs another thing altogether for us all to be together, and also be trying to do the different things that we want to do, all in one space all the time. I think there was a bit of grieving about what this season was going to look like for me. Iâm, as you said, Iâm in the process of trying to write my second book, and I was just really getting my teeth into it, and I had sort of a plan that I was going to get this first draft written by, well the end of this month was my plan. Thatâs not happening, and so there has been a process of gradually accepting the limits of what are possible, and actually being okay with that. And I think that for all of us, in our house for me, my husband and my kids, my eldest daughter was meant to be sitting her GCSEs this summer, and when we found out those exams were cancelled that wasâI mean, I cannot remember the last time, it sounds ridiculous really, but I cannot remember the last time I felt so utterly devastated for her really. Because sheâs a really hard worker and she was in her lastâsheâll be moving schools in September so it was her last term at this school that sheâs been at since she was five, and theyâre a great year group, and theyâve been working really hard, and itâs that whole thing that weâre aiming towards this thing, that youâre being told for years and years is really important, itâs really important, itâs really important, and then all of a sudden itâs just like oh it doesnât matter and itâs gone, and that kind of just likeâand I, when we heard she, we were listening to the news and we heard Boris Johnson announce that all exams, GCSEs, A Levels, all exams were being cancelled, and she ran downstairs into the kitchenâshe just went is it true, is it true, is it true, and I was like Iâm listening, Iâm listening, I donât know, and then we both just burst into tears. And really I think we both cried on and off for forty-eight hours, and a lot of the time I felt a bit stupid, because I was like itâs just GCSEs, and in the long, in the big scheme of things you know that it doesnât really matter, no one ever asks you what you got for your GCSEs after two years later.
Daniel Whitehead: That is true.
Elli Johnson: But it was more the, the kind of rights of passage, for her, for me. It was the expectation and anticipation that was just suddenly like the rug was pulled, and it was also just understanding that, it was the first thing that made us really realize âoh life is really going to change now.â
Daniel Whitehead: Yeah.
Elli Johnson: And we all have got to get onboard with this, as quickly as we can because, because thatâs what is necessary. And I think the crying, I felt silly, I felt really silly because I just couldnât stop, like people would see me in the street, and I would just burst into tears, or you know Iâd be in the supermarket trying to get a fewâI would just burst into tears, Iâd be like Iâm so sorry I donât even know why Iâm crying really, I just have to cry. But now I look back and I think, actually Iâm quite glad that I cried so much because it enabled her to cry, and for me it meant that I wasnât trying to make everything okay through my own sort of willpower.
Daniel Whitehead: Yeah.
Elli Johnson: And actually I was allowing, accepting the fact that it wasnât okay, and it was sad and, I donât know where I picked this upâit could have been BrenĂŠ Brown, could have been Susan David, could have been any of the brilliant thinkersâbut the whole thing about emotion needs motion, like we need to, there needs to be movement, and to allow it to move through us and, and yeah those first few days were really hard, but it was kind of a good process. Yes I got distracted there I got off the point.
Daniel Whitehead: No thatâs great, I think weâll come back to crying, because I think thatâs a good thing to talk about, but itâs interesting reflecting in our home, when the news broke here that schools were closing, Annieâmy wife who is a, she works as a childrenâs pastor in a church, but was a teacher by vocationâshe came through and said theyâve announced schools are closing, and thereâs sort of tears welling up in her eyes. And as much as Annie loves education, and Evie going to school and those things, I knew it was way deeper than that, the tears were something really bad is happening, something really serious is happening, and the world has changed, and thatâs what it was, and whatâs interesting reflecting on my own response to that, I mean I will process my emotions probably in about ten yearsâ time, or slowly you know over a longer period.
Elli Johnson: Earlier than Annie.
Daniel Whitehead: In that moment, I suddenly got up and go, âwell this is happening this is, this is what weâre going to do.â
Elli Johnson: Yeah, letâs make a plan.
Daniel Whitehead: Yeah so there was this, this disconnect in the moment which Iâm not proud of, Iâm really not like I know this stuff, I read books, I listen to BrenĂŠ Brown, Iâm friends with Hillary McBride, I know this stuff, but nevertheless there is a, yeah there is this challenge. Talking around crying and tears, I think that, thereâs something there to press into, because it will seem really obvious to those of us that are working in a kind of mental health environment, or around it or speaking to this, that emotional connection and emotional engagement, emotional intelligence all those things are vital to having wellbeing, to being in touch. And itâs always struck me, you know as a person of faith, and youâre a person of faith, that the challenge in the Scripturesâyou know when Jesus encounters a group of people who are grieving, he goes to the tomb of Lazarus, and then he sees them grieving, what does he do? He weeps, which to me is strange, because if I were Jesus, and clearly I think I would have done a better job, when I make statements, opening statements like that.
Elli Johnson: If I were Jesus.
Daniel Whitehead: If I were Jesus. If I were Jesus I would have, I would have said, âGuys donât cry, like thereâs no need, Iâm going to fix this,â boom, done.
Elli Johnson: âItâs all good people, donât worry about it.â
Daniel Whitehead: You know it would have, it would have been fine, and yet his responseâyou know God in human flesh, the one who creates and holds and sustains all things, in human fleshâhis first response is empathy, is to cry.
Elli Johnson: Yes.
Daniel Whitehead: To be stirred by them, and so thereâs something in that isnât there.
Elli Johnson: And I think there isâand I think, and maybe this is the problem with my definition of empathy, but I think that, I want to think that he was also grieving. He wasnât just like oh Iâm crying like because youâre crying, he was crying because he was also sad. And I donât know, thatâs not theologically based, but I like to think that, yeah that Jesus was so totally human that he couldnât not weep, when something really bad was happening. But yeah I remember my, therapist said to me, I wasâjust for anybody who doesnât know me, I was diagnosed with Postnatal Depression and Generalized Anxiety Disorder ten years ago now, and it came as a massive shock, and I didnât know, sorry Dan, I know you know all this but.
Daniel Whitehead: No please tell people.
Elli Johnson: It came as a massive shock, and I didnât know that I had been ill for quite a long time, and Iâd been trying to make myself be okay, and a lot of that looked like trying to shut down how I felt, apologizing for tears, feeling weak for crying, feeling like my anxiety was my own fault, and if only I was stronger, then I wouldnât feel like that. And being from a faith background if only I was holier, prayed more, had more faith, whatever, I wouldnât feel like that, you know I wouldnât feel the need for theseâand this is ânegative emotionsâ because there are no negative or positive emotions thereâs just emotionsâbut I had to learn that. And my therapist said to me, I was crying again with her one, this is quite near the beginning, and I started to say sorry, and she said âOh really no, all tears are therapeutic.â And I say that to my kids now, I say âNo, no, no crying is good, crying is good, all tears are therapeutic,â like thereâs a, thereâs a release thatâs needed, or itâs expressing how weâre feeling. And I donât want to just, not everybody is a crier, like I think weâre different arenât we, and I, yeah I know that some people crying comes really easilyâI cry quite easily these daysâbut I donât know if everybody does. But somehow this experience is provoking emotional responses, and if we donât allow those and acknowledge those emotional responses, then we canât get to the other side of that and then start to work towards working through them, trying to understand or you know get past the, if we deny the initial emotional response, thereâs always a healthy way to express that, it doesnât have to be you know throwing things across a room. But if we deny the initial emotional response, whether thatâs anger or tears or whatever it is, then we canât move past that feeling, you know itâs like itâs stuffed, itâs yeah weâre just stuffing it down, trying to repress it with other things, you know whether thatâs TV or booze or cake or you know whatever.
Daniel Whitehead: Yeah, anything, yeah.
Elli Johnson: Yeah anything, and Iâve seen it in my, in my son, he has cried a bit, but itâs mainly acting out which looks more like anger and it looks like tantrums, which arenâtâyou know heâs ten, thatâs not that normal anymore, you know occasional, we all have a tantrum occasionally. But his inability to talk about or process the things that he was missing, meant that he would just get very frustrated, and then it would sort of erupt, and it took me a couple of timesâI got this wrong a couple of times, when I would like lay down the law, or you know say okay you need to go to your room, you donât speak to me like that or whateverâand then I realized oh no, no, no thatâs not what this is, this is grief manifesting, this is his inability to process what is happening, manifesting and actually all he needs is me to hug him, and like this isnât the time for discipline, you know for him right now this isnât, thatâs not whatâs necessary. Whatâs necessary is him to just know that heâs safe and heâs loved. I mean thatâs mainly whatâs necessary all the time, really, isnât it? But, but even more so now, this isnât the time to be saying, âthatâs not how we do things in this house,â yes of course we still need boundaries, and he definitely needs routine, but actually Iâve realized that itâs more important for me to acknowledge how heâs feeling, to say I know itâs really hard, I know youâre really missing your friends, I know youâre finding it really hard that youâre at home, and youâre having to learn, you know even just having to learn remotely. Even though Iâm right there with him, heâs used to being in a classroom, to goofing about with his friends, being able to tell his friends that he thinks itâs boring, and you know answering the questions, and getting something right and getting praised for it, and that can still happen but in a very limited way when itâs just me and him sat at the kitchen table, and to be able to say to him like âthis is really hard, and youâre doing really well, and I really love you and itâs going to be okay,â and it kind of took me a while to realize that thatâs what his meltdowns needed, much more than you know me being strict, or any kind of punishment. I mean gosh this is not the time for that.
Daniel Whitehead: Yeah, and thatâs really interesting isnât it, when we think about, often we you know and I know that you believe this, but when we talk about our children, and like you know I have a son whose four years old, and sometimes heâll respond in certain ways that four years olds do, and my wife will remind me occasionally when Iâm not quite seeing it, and say âwell heâs only able to process one emotion at a time, like you canât, you know he canât multitask his emotions.â And then sheâll say that and Iâll think, âI think itâs the same with me.â you know as well, we analyze our children and go âoh yes this is, this is what theyâre experiencing, and this is how they react,â and like no thatâs how we react as adults as well. Itâs like we get angry and suddenly we think if we do the work we think, âwell why am I angry?â Like whatâs, whatâs really going on here, and anger is obviously a valid emotion. But itâs interesting to me in your journey as a person of faith, you kind of came to this realization that you know you received this diagnosis, and the process of coming to own that, and then looking back at your story, as a person of faith, I wonder where there tensions there in terms of what you were implicitly believingâyou alluded to it earlier but maybe talk a bit more.
Elli Johnson: Were there tensions? Hmm let me think.
Daniel Whitehead: Yeah, there you go, Iâve set it up for you.
Elli Johnson: Yes I had to unpack the whole thing. I think yes very much so. The way I had understood how to be a person of faith, how to be a Christian, was so much weighted on my behaviour, and my ability to do it right, and I knew about grace, I knew about the Gospel, etc, you know. And Iâd tick all them boxes, yeah I know all that, but then what would always be left with me was a âand what are you going to do in response?â Like because you have been given such a great prize, you know salvation, and you know grace for all your, the things that youâve done wrong and all the ways in which you screw up, and now what Elli, and I have come to realize that, well that isnât how I think about faith anymore at all, and that rewiring, dismantling the old framework and then trying to figure out what goes in its place, has taken ten years, and Iâm not there, just still working on it. But fundamentally the idea that there was any way in which, I needed to contribute to my acceptance, I needed to perform, to do anythingâanything at allâto make myself worthy of acceptance, was something that itâs taken a long time to, to come to grips with it in any way. Because really my, if you like my teenage years were all the donât, all the donâtsâyou know donât drink, donât smoke, donât have sex, donât have friends who are unsuitable, donât dress immodestly, donât blah-blah-blah. And all my twenties were all the doâs, do work hard, do run small groups, do be a godly parent, do have an excellent marriage, do volunteer, do be a good friend, do pray, do read your Bible, do blah-blah-blah-blah-blah, you know added onto all the donâts that weâve already had. And it felt like it became less and less possible to, to trust myself, to be, to be able to do any of those things. And I mean this is, I am condensing you know a decadeâs worth of thinking and learning about this, and therefore this is going to be only fragments of the truth, but it came really from an idea that I had, Iâd put original sin before original goodness. So in the, in the Garden of Eden story, when Adam and Eve, or Eve and Adam as lots of people to say at this point, you know eat from the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil, having been tempted by the serpent, you know original sinâas I was always taught, original sin entered the world, and there was this idea that we were originally sinful. But actually I was forgetting the chapter that came before, that talked about how we were created good, and how God looked and he said, âvery good,â and I kind ofâthat had not even factored in my thinking. Iâd only focused on the fact that I was in some way not good enough, and had to work very hard to make myself good enough. Which in a way is kind of why the books called How Not To Be Good, because I spent so many years trying to be good, trying to repair the things that I wasnât good enough at, trying to have a consistent prayer life, trying toâoh I donât know volunteer at church in the kidsâ work, you know I was really bad, and I really had a bad attitude about that, because I was terrible at it and I hated it, or to try and be patient with my kids, or to be gracious with my husband, or you know whatever it might be. And every time I failed or I fell short of what I thought was expected of me, which when I examined it what I thought was expected of me was perfection, which was pretty unattainable, it just piled on the pressure to try harder. And I think that that was probably one of the main, strands that contributed to my anxiety and depression, because I started becoming these two separate people. The person who I really was, who felt like a failure and like she was getting it wrong all the time, and was trying to constantly repress all my actual needs and desires, and this other person who I showed, who I was like âoh hereâs shiny Elli, who does the right thing, and you know looks good, and ticks all the boxes,â and that dislocation between, the me who I really was, and the me who I thought I should be, created aâwell, I think that was one of the main contributing causes to my depression. And so yeah the faith element of it, it wasnât the only thing. There was lots of other things: three small children, a busy life all the rest of it. But I would say that the faith strand was the thing, that I found it very hard to silence because it was so woven into my upbringing and my belief system and my value system, so yeah so unpacking that, and realizing that original goodness comes first, and that I in no way need to contribute towards my acceptanceâbecause I am accepted, because I am, because I exist, because I was created, because I was loved. Thatâs quite a big mind shift, and it catches me out all the time still, you know when I realize that Iâm performing or Iâm trying to make somebody like me, or Iâm you know whatever it is Iâm doing. So yeah, sorry, big answer. It was a big question, I donât apologize for giving a big answer.
Daniel Whitehead: Itâs a good answer, itâs a good answer and I wonder how often, so in terms of your faith journey, this crisisâlike in some senses Iâve only known you since, Iâm going to say Elli 2.0, but you know, knowing youâre a work in progress.
Elli Johnson: Itâs actually Elli original who you met.
Daniel Whitehead: Yeah there you go, there you go yeah getting back to original Elli, the good Elli, but getting back to thatâhow is your experience of faith subsequently, lets say the Church, your experience in the Church, with this mental health thing youâre carrying, has that been a natural fit for others, what kind of response have you had, have you found, have you found a safe space in a church to be this Elli?
Elli Johnson: Thatâs a very difficult question Dan, and one I donât know that I can fully answer, because I donât know if I fully have an answer. One thing I will say for sure is I have found lots of other people, who are on a similar journey to me in lots of faith communities. And that is, I definitely donâtâit sometimes feels very lonely, when youâre unpicking things that felt like they were, expectations laid down by a certain faith community. Iâm not saying that they were, but when thatâs the kind of general assumption, is that we work hard together for the Gospel, if you like, which isnât necessarily a bad thing, hard work is not a bad thing, but the motivation behind it cannotâis not always necessarily massively healthy. Or maybe in my, I can only talk for myself, in my experience it wasnât, for me it wasnât healthy. And I donât know whether churchesâand I just want to speak in broad terms if thatâs alrightâbut I donât know how much churches have really, or really understand the mental health implications of, of some of the teaching, which is well intentioned and, and good you know and often sound. But I think that we maybe have an imbalance, in the things that weâre taught sometimes in certain churches, and that the works element although, although we know the right answers, we know that itâs not, itâs not by works that we are saved, actually thereâs a lot of talk about works, and maybe not that much talk about grace. And I would definitely say that I, I have found people of faith, who I am working this out with, doesnât necessarily look like a formal church arrangement, although I still go to church, I wouldnât necessarily say that Iâm getting the chance to explore all those things, in a formal church arrangement at the moment. Because, and I know lots of people hate this word, but to a certain extent the church is an institution, and an institution or an organization has to, in part, exist to maintain itself and therefore there has to be work that goes into maintaining the organizational structure and the institution of the church, and thatâs not always compatible with the broken people that the church is looking to serve, and I count myself in that category. We had one conversation, a while back with some people, Iâm being vague, about what a, âsuccessfulââagain using that word in inverted commas advisablyâchurch Sunday morning would look like, and there were lots of reasonable answers, about people being engaged with worship, or a really good theologically sound word being preached, or people responding to that word well. And I didnât say anything, and then eventually I said, surely it just looks like the most broken, needy, and desperate people feeling safe, and like thereâs a place that they can come, and know acceptance, and everyone was like oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah but actually I think those two things can be in tension quite often. Because churches want the appearanceâI donât know, I donât really want to say much more about that but, but I think that itâs difficult. I think that itâs complicated for a community to exist for the benefit of its weakest members, which is kind of what the Church is kind of meant to do.
Daniel Whitehead: Thatâs very interesting, I was chatting with Ruth Rice who you also knowâI think did I introduce you to Ruth Rice?
Elli Johnson: You did.
Daniel Whitehead: Yeah, and RuthâRuth runs this organization Renew Wellbeing, which was borne out of her own brokenness, her own experience of burnout as a minister, and really asking the question what kind of community do I need to be well. And so she created this thing which they call Renew Wellbeing, which is this space which has this rhythm of prayerâwhich is optional, people you know they pray three times a day, itâs very kind of monastic in that sense, loosely monastic but follows that pattern, and itâs always done in a side room people can go intoâbut the rest of the time this is just a space where people connect, and find belonging and wellness. And somehow in the midst of that environment they create, surprisinglyâsurprise, surpriseâGod is somehow in the midst, and there are people you know encountering community and love, and grace and mercy in those spaces. So to me itâs an amazing model that any church could pick up.
Elli Johnson: Yeah, yeah.
Daniel Whitehead: But one of the dangers is that churches go, âOh well this is another thing, so weâll just do this thing.â
Elli Johnson: Yeah weâll tick that box.
Daniel Whitehead: People go and do their thing, but weâre doing the Sunday morning thing, yeah. And yet there is the churches that do that Renew thing well, itâs more like a philosophy of how they see the body of Christ, as this messy broken group of people that are trying to work it out together.
Elli Johnson: I think, I think the community part is something that I havenât quite, I havenât quite found my place, for that element yet. But I would say that Iâve found that I encounter God, more in my garden than generally in church services at the moment, would be the truth, the absolute truth, I find. You know, or walking by the river, or you know being outdoors I feel connected to God, in a way that buildings donât always quite work for me at the moment, and I think itâs part of my journey, to use that word but, but itâs part of my process at the moment. Because I think thereâs a, thereâs a certain necessary element of healing I think that has to come for me, and also thereâs like a, thereâsâwell hereâs a thing. So the whole idea of pattern matching, pattern matching experiences with places, or things that trigger memories of that certain thing. So, for example, having been brought up in a church environment, which in many ways was excellent, like there was loads of excellent things about it, but one of the things about it was actually, I ended up not very well and I often felt that very much in the church, and I felt my sense of not quite being able to figure it out and make it work. And therefore sometimes I can be in a church environment and I can sort of find myself going back there to being, the other Elli, whoâs trying to do all these things, and thatâs not necessarily very helpful for me. Whereas being outside and being in the garden, and paying attention to creation, or you know whatever it might be, is something that is new to me and therefore thereâs no negative associations with those things, and I feel like I can think clearer, like the clouds clear and I can make more sense of it. And if you donât mind me just going off on a bit of a tangent here, the situation that weâre in at the moment with lockdown, really reminded meâI didnât realize for two weeks, the first two weeks I was really struggling, and I felt this anger growing in me about the situation, about being trapped at home, about the fact that my husband was in my office, you know working all the hours and I was stuck downstairs doing the home schooling, not getting to write the book that I wanted to be writing, not able to see my friends or give myself, you know or necessarily using all the things that I have used in the past ten years, to make myself stay well, whether thatâs walking or seeing a friend, or whatever it might be. And it took two weeks, I suddenly realized, âoh Iâm getting really angry, Iâm getting really angry about the situation, this feels, this is totally unfair, why am I the one doing this,â you know all that, all that âpoor meâ going on, and I had a big row with my husbandâbecause thatâs the healthy thing to do, right?âand it was only the next day, and it was fine we didnât, there was no solution, but we you know worked it through and we still liked each other at the end so it was fine. Then the next day I suddenly realized oh, Iâve been going, Iâve regressed ten, twelve, thirteen years back to the me that was stuck at home with young kids, who was actually seriously depressed who didnât know it, who was feeling trapped, and isolated and like everybody else could do this better than her, and she was making a mess of it and all the rest of it, and I had absolutely in my mind pattern matched to this previous experience of being stuck at home with children. And thenâbut as soon as I realized that, it was like you know the lights came on, and I was like âoh but Iâm not that person anymore, and I donât have to experience this like that,â and I can make this work in a way, for me where Iâm still able to do some of the things that I need to do, that I can give my kids my time, but Iâm also not trapped, and Iâm not stuck in this, I can ask for what I want and what I need here, in these you know constrained environments and situations that weâre in. And it was such a, it was such a revelation. And Iâve spoken to, I wrote something on Instagram about it, and I spoke to a couple of people about it, and they were like âthatâs exactly what Iâve done, thatâs exactly what Iâve done.â I think people who have experiences of postnatal depression, particularly youâre back now at home, trying to homeschool, maybe trying to do another job at the same time, all the rest of itâI think that there are very similar, feelings of isolation and separation that can occur. And it takes, you have to sort of give yourself a moment to recognize that this isnât the same thing, and maybe youâre not the same person as you were. I know thatâs complete, answer to a completely different question but I just thought Iâd throw it in.
Daniel Whitehead: Itâs a great answer, and I think that whole, you know that instinctive, that inbuilt trauma recognition thing that we have, to me as a, I know working in this environment of faith and mental health, and talking with different people. Some people get very nervous when you begin to talk about the science of this, going well actually thereâs something inbuilt in us that if you are put into a situation that reminds you of a traumatic event, it will trigger a certain response, that kind of fight or flight thing. And yet for me as a person of faith, you know as someone whose studied theology, to me it just speaks of how fearfully and wonderfully made we areâhow God has made us, heâs thought of every little detail that actually, if weâre in a dangerous situation, or a situation that feels dangerous, and we donât even know it but subconsciously it feels dangerous, heâs created us to respond in a way thatâs going to get us out of that situation.
Elli Johnson: Yes, yeah itâs for our own protection isnât it, and you know you wouldnât want, I donât wantâI want my kids to step into the road and a car comes past them, having to step back really quickly, and then the next time I want them to think before they cross the road you know. But I want them to have that feeling of âoh this is a dangerous situation, I need to pay attention here.â You know and youâre right, itâs not that pattern matching thing is for my protection, and itâs to open my eyes to the situation. And to you know itâs for my own growth and protection like you sayâyeah, totally.
Daniel Whitehead: Yeah and that thing, I mean you can tell that youâve done the work, where your response to what is otherwise a very negative emotion, like that feeling of anger and just carrying anger, is to go whatâs it telling me, and then in some ways you can then say oh, well thank you inbuilt response, thank you anger, you had my back but Iâm okay, I can.
Elli Johnson: Yeah Iâm okay now, Iâve got this one.
Daniel Whitehead: Iâve got this, I can put these things in place, and that to me speaks of someone whoâs done the work. And I know that hasnât happened overnight but.
Elli Johnson: No.
Daniel Whitehead: But I really admire you for that.
Elli Johnson: Thanks Dan. One other thing, my husband did a, like aâheâs not on any social media and hilariously he was asked to do an Instagram Live, and he had to do it off our fifteen year oldâs account, which just you know really made my day that he was going on my daughters account, on this Instagram Live. But somebody asked him, you know what, how are you coping, or you know what are you doing at this time, and he said kind of off the cuff, âWell for the last ten years weâve been deliberately slowing our life down, so itâs probably been a bit easier for us than it is for other people.â And like boy is that true, you know we have, we have slowed everything down, and our lives still feel full, but compared to the ridiculous ideal that we used to have of what we should be able to fit into an hour, a day, a week, you know we haveâwe have really culled at the diary, you know and initially that was just because we had to. Because there was no, there was no alternative, like I was really not very well, and that was, that was what was necessary. And then we realized âoh hang on a second, we canât go back, because if we went back weâd just end up ill again.â So that was, that was a nonstarter.
Daniel Whitehead: Well thatâs, thatâs really interesting that you raise such a potential other thing to go down, and itâs nearly time to finish, but I think if itâs possible to, sort of summarize that point, which I think is an amazing thing to recognize, is that there are many people that would argue that our culture has been operating in a way that is not conducive to wellness. Ultimately we see ourselves as, our value is attached to what we can produce. The faster we go, the more weâre praised. Weâre actually rewarding people for pursuing a lack of wellness, and that whole thing of âlove has a speed,â which I think John Swintonâwho again you know is a friend of Sanctuaryâthat John has written about that, that love has a speed, and that ultimately love is kind of a slow process, you canât, you canât hurry love, you know. Youâll just have to wait.
Elli Johnson: You canât.
Daniel Whitehead: Who said that? But the point is I think ifâand thatâs one of the strange weird and this is a very Western perspective, I know for many people whatâs happening right now, is only darkness and difficult.
Elli Johnson: Yeah, absolutely.
Daniel Whitehead: If you cannot earn the money today to pay for your bread tomorrow, you and your family are going hungry, so Iâm not trying to trivialize whatâs going on, whatâs happening is horrendous and we need this to end. You know, Lord help us, we need this to end, but one of the strange gifts, reoccurring gifts that I know Iâve encountered, and Iâm hearing from other people, is that people have time. And in that place of time, people are able to notice, people who live with their families, they notice their children more. Theyâre saying âoh Iâm getting to see my children more than I did, and thereâs something I feel kind of guilty about enjoying this a little bit, because I know I shouldnât be,â but there is a strange gift in just being given time. And I think this whole mental health conversation, a lot of what I hear from people who are pursuing wellness and doing well, is that they found a new rhythm, a new way of, of engaging with time, that theyâre not dancing to a tune that someone else has told them. Theyâre now slowing down and living the life that they can live, and pursuing wellness so, yeah thereâs more that could be said but.
Elli Johnson: Yeah, I mean yeah, I think itâs absolutely true and at the moment you know, we were joking the other day about likeâwhy did we buy a diary for this year, like what was the point? Like you know everything that was in has been cancelled, but actually the idea of having a diary and scheduling in rest, like actually scheduling it, because we schedule everything else, and we schedule you know all the time that we have a lot of the time. And now Iâve learned that if I look at my diary, and Iâm out more than two evenings in a week, thatâs not going to go well for me, and itâs actually not going to go well for me, and itâs actually not going to go well for my family either, and thatâs not because Iâm a martyr to my kids and like cooking home-cooked food donât get me wrong, itâs not going to go well for my kids because Iâm not going to end up very well. Maybe three nights at a push, but like thatâs just got to be one week, and then the next week Iâd have to take it easier. You know whereas I used to think I could be out four nights a week, no stress every week, in fact I had regular commitments three nights a week, regardless and now, you know I think even if itâs something I really want to do, and Iâve realized you know simple things likeâobviously when weâre not in lockdown, wanting to see friends, and recognizing that the rhythm of our friendship, is actually that we donât see each other, every week or even every two weeks. Maybe we see each other once a month, maybe every six weeks, and actually acknowledging that, and being like that doesnât mean that I donât care about them, that doesnât mean that theyâre not really important to me, it doesnât mean that we wonât probably text each other in between, but life is you knowâif you work and youâve got kids, or you know even if you donâtâlife is full. And actually recognizing that and then putting plans in place, is absolutely necessary to you know maintaining mental health and wellbeing. And also just for fun, like life is a lot more fun when youâre not knackered all the time. It really is.
Daniel Whitehead: Yeah, itâs so true, and itâs so funny you know it strikes me Elli, itâs so funny that we can sit here and we can pat ourselves on the back, and go oh yeah calendarizing rest, thereâs a great idea, thereâs a novel new idea that weâve worked out, after forty-four minutes of talking, weâve worked out that to calendarize rest is the thing. And yet right at the beginning of the Genesis, you know narrative, right at the beginning: donât forget to rest.
Elli Johnson: Right there, yeah, yeah and I love, my favourite Iâm going to plug, Iâm going to make a little plug for it, my favourite book that Iâve read about Sabbath, is called Sabbath by Wayne Muller. I donât know if youâve read that book.
Daniel Whitehead: No I havenât.
Elli Johnson: And itâs absolutely brilliant, and that book has challenged me so many times, about what it actually means to rest, like what is actual rest as opposes to like, you know we think, you know well you knowâIâm having a day off today, but actually your day off is full with chores, itâs not actually a day off. Or you know whatever it might be, and not resting when the works finished, but resting because itâs time for rest, is another real challenge to our like Western capitalist mindset really isnât it, you know we think âoh Iâve just got to get all that done, and then Iâll be able to rest.â Well, no, if you work until you get all that done, youâll probably just collapse. You wonât rest, youâll just, you know zone out. But yeah itâs a concept thatâs been there since the very beginning, and yet we are still trying to learn it.
Daniel Whitehead: Wow, well Elli thank you so much for sharing from your experience.
Elli Johnson: Pleasure.
Daniel Whitehead: And your honesty and candour is, is just so needed and Iâm just grateful that your work is getting out there. Quickly tell people how they can connect with you via various online platforms.
Elli Johnson: Gosh, I struggle to remember them all. Basically Iâm Elli Johnson which is E L L I J O H N S O N, thereâs no E on the end of my name, I donât know why, thatâs how my parents spelled it. I donât know anybody else who spells it like that but thatâs how it is, and itâs ellijohnson.com and then you can find links to everything from there. Iâm on Instagram @ellijohnsonuk, and Iâve written a book called How Not To Be Good, which at the moment is only for sale through my website. Thatâs it.
Daniel Whitehead: Yeah Iâm sure thatâll change soon. So Elli thank you so much for joining us, if youâve been listening to this or watching this, and you think itâs good share it with other people, go to sanctuarymentalhealth.org to find all our resources. The Sanctuary Course an eight session course on faith and mental health, the grief resource which will be launched by the time that this airs, which is a four session course, our blog, various other things but look up sanctuarymentalhealth.org, go to ellijohnson.com.
Elli Johnson: Thatâs right.
Daniel Whitehead: Go there, and yeah thanks for joining us.
Sanctuary Mental Health Ministries exists to equip the church to be a sanctuary for all people, at all stages of their mental wellness journey, may this podcast encourage you to create safe space for your own story, and the stories of others as well as create change in communities that stigmatize those suffering with mental health challenges.
The Sanctuary Course is a small group resource designed to help initiate and guide conversations about mental health and faith, it is a starting point, creating a base of shared knowledge from which churches can explore the next steps, perhaps most importantly through the simple act of talking openly about mental health, the course helps churches begin to create safe spaces for people to share their mental health stories, and receive support in community.
Each theme in the course is explored from a psychological, social and theological perspective, and each session is accompanied by a compelling film focussed on an individual story, a person of faith whose journeyed through mental health challenges.
This podcast is released under creative commons attribution, non-commercial, no derivatives 4.0 license. Donât change it or sell it but please share it all you like.